Banding Together For Survival

by Survival Diva on June 29, 2012

Survival Diva here. The comments you shared last week was incredible and went a long ways towards survival for many who visit Secrets Of Urban Survival. I mentioned upcoming posts to highlight the many aspects of survival and we’re launching it with banding together for survival.

Before we dive in, it must be said not everyone will be interested in a group. There are lone wolves with wilderness skills who plan to go into survival mode by living off the land. Each one of us has a comfort zone. For most who have children or elderly family members or friends to watch over, surviving in place may be the best approach. There are positives to this, and there are negatives.

Just for the sake of argument, I’m a survive in place gal, but I certainly see the wisdom of bugging out. There are many children in our group (in fact, one is about to be born) and a few who are too old to flee to the woods and expect to survive. However, plans have been laid for those are able to take off if the time comes. As many commented with the post Five Types Of Looters You Must Prepare For, at some point, the final outcome will be up to God. In the meantime, preparing as best we can is always wise.

Before you read on, please know the points discussed here are not meant to overwhelm. Just the opposite! Forewarned is forearmed. It is difficult for many of us to envision a time when everything we take for granted today suddenly disappears, and we must go into survival mode.

Why A Group?

As David talks about in the “Mutual Aid” section of the SurviveInPlace.com course, there are many reasons to consider banding together with like-minded folks.The everyday chores we’ll be forced to do alone will make it difficult for the average person or family to get it all accomplished and still protect their home. Have a look:

  • Preparing food using alternative cooking will take longer when using bulk foods such as beans and rice (although the suggestions about using a pressure cooker is spot-on—just not split peas). There will be no popping meals into a microwave. However, solar ovens are a good workaround for those in a climate zone where they can be depended upon. You should also consider the work of grinding wheat and corn, manually—our group has already let the children have “fun” with this task.

  • Every-Day Needs: Grid Down may mean treks to an outhouse for some, and disposing of waste for others. This entails digging or plenty of walks outdoors for many who don’t have a septic tank. Floors will have to be swept, rather than vacuumed. Clothes will need to be mended, rather than replaced.

  • Hunting and fishing, when possible, is important to replenish food. This is time-consuming and will be physically demanding.

  • Canning and dehydrating foods takes time and physical energy.

  • Hand washing laundry and hanging it on the line and washing dishes by hand takes time and hard work.

  • Gardening is imperative for an ongoing food source. Again, this will eat up time and requires sweat equity!

  • Keeping children entertained may be more demanding, depending upon their age. There will be no TV’s or Nintendo. They will not be running to the neighbors to play with friends. We’ll discuss ideas about keeping them occupied, beyond helping with chores, in another post.

  • Drawing water from a well or spring, or collecting it from a nearby source will make heavy demands on your time and energy—a 5-gallon container of water weighs 41.75 lbs! Make sure to get a sturdy wheeled cart for hauling water from an offsite location. You will also be running water through a purifier, which may not be physically taxing, but will take time.

  • For those in a northern climate zone, tree-felling and chopping wood for heat is a must and will be time consuming and physically demanding! Same goes for those of us who plan to use a wood cook stove—this requires plenty of wood-splitting.

  • Repairs we once called the repair guy for will have to be done by you; again time consuming and can be physically taxing.

  • Safety! I saved one of the most important pieces of the puzzle for last, because we’ll pick up that thread below.

Think about all you’ll be doing each day to survive. With that in mind, do you believe a husband and wife and 2 children, or a couple, or a single person will be able to get everything done and then have the stamina to patrol the perimeter of their home during a time of social unrest?

(David’s note: This daunting list of tasks and chores is EXACTLY why you want to have a large stockpile of easy to cook food and easy to use supplies, including hygiene. This is not an either/or proposition. A stockpile of food and supplies will buy you the precious time that you will need to “glide” through short term disasters, and to transition into primitive living mode in medium to long term disasters.

As an example, if you’ve got a family of 4, a 50 gallon water heater, a 50 gallon barrel of water, a case of wet-wipes, and a good supply of canned foods, you won’t have to spend any time manually pumping or carrying water for disasters lasting into the 3-4 week range.)

In the city and in the country, folks will need to be prepared to protect their home. During a time of unruliness, many preppers plan to patrol parameters around the clock, so they can protect and defend BEFORE the bad guy shows. Many believe it will be physically impossible to perform everyday tasks a crisis brings and keep a home safe from looters and worse. This is why you hear of preppers banding together; to split up chores and still keep safety at the forefront.

Here’s where pre-planning can help! There are many ways to hook up with like-minded folks. But before we head there, it must be said to always approach this very carefully.

Seeking Outsiders

Many hard-core preppers are militant with regards to accepting others into their group, going as far as running a background check on newcomers. Meet in a neutral location a safe distance away from your location—always. It may take several meetings before you’re able to get a feel for a stranger. Never give your location, real name, or phone number (block caller Id when communicating by phone and remember the reverse lookup). Do not hand over a laundry list of your preparedness goods, or discuss specifics of what you’ve put into place for survival until you have reason to believe you can trust a new contact.

Ask questions. What type of training do they have? What would they bring to the table? Then, ask yourself; will their training and preparedness be enough for you to want to plan a second meeting? Medical and tactical training is great if you can find someone with such skills. But so is someone who can weld, or do repairs, or knows how to sew, or understands communications, or can help watch over children. A hard worker, willing to share in the gardening, clothes washing, canning, food dehydration, or who will pitch in with water and sanitation needs will go a long ways to create a cohesive group.

Each of us has life situations that must be considered. If it’s likely a contact you meet expects to invite their extended family members to your place—better reconsider!

Most who go the route of recruiting strangers have strict guidelines: The newbie must be willing to provide a certain amount of food and preparedness goods BEFORE they’re accepted (typically one years supply of food storage and goods, and sometimes more), and these items MUST be stored at the bug out location before things go south. To do otherwise will only put a drain on your resources, which will compromise the health and welfare of loved ones. They will also insist on sharing in the cost and sweat-equity of improvements like building an outhouse, or a smokehouse, or digging a root cellar, clearing land for a garden, or installing a manual hand pump to a well, etc., at the bug out location. In an urban setting, it may mean they are expected to pitch in on alternative cooking, communications, medical supplies, square-foot gardening, water collection and purification and the like.

Extended Family

Now, this is a can of worms! I have NEVER met a die-hard prepper who hasn’t been challenged with trying to wake up clueless family members who continue to buy unnecessary luxuries, and treat everyday like it’s party time with no thought for tomorrow.It’s my believe your turning them away or not comes down to your personality and may sometimes involve how much you are able to put aside. Will you say yes or to say no? Could you tell your third cousin removed to go away if they show up on your doorstep? You need to decide now, because it’s almost a given most of us into prepping are known by our family members, and they’ll be beating a path to our door at the first sign of trouble!

As mentioned in last week’s post, it isn’t always a negative to have relatives join you when things go south—IF they have something to offer. It must be a fair trade-out, or it becomes a drain on your resources and those closest to you will be put in jeopardy. Do they have a strong back, able to help with chores? Do they have training that will be beneficial when services are no longer available?

I have met many who have traded beans, bullets and band aids for know-how or a good work ethic—myself included. It’s possible to have a discussion and get a family members’ agreement, beforehand, of what is expected of them in order for them to be welcome. Example: if they have welding skills, they would be expected to show up with a non-electrical powered welder, or they can keep walking. After all, if you are ponying up a portion or all of their food, or a safe location, they can’t expect you to morph into the welfare line in an emergency by showing up empty-handed.

It’s for certain ground rules must be established. Call it tough love. Everyone must either contribute and get along with others, or they are “voted off the island.” Period. Personally, my rules on this are set in concrete. The reason is simple: in a crisis, there will be no room for those wanting to dodge the workload, or spend their time whining and complaining. This type of behavior will destroy the cohesiveness of the group, and everyone in the group is then put in jeopardy. My rules? Anyone acting up WILL be leaving for a one-week camping trip. Alone. Their return is contingent upon a new and improved attitude and is also based upon their willingness to contribute to the group—or they can keep walking. If their infraction is severe enough, they are out. Expecting cooperation over rules you set means discussing the rules and expectations before trouble starts.

Community Involvement

Community involvement can make a world of difference. If you are known to be a dependable, before a crisis, and if you have developed relationships with local authorities, the Church, or volunteer for such services as the volunteer fire department, or EMT services, not only will you gain valuable training, you’re likely be treated fairly in a time of collapse. After all, your expertise and level-headedness will be deemed valuable for the community’s survival!

This isn’t always the case as pointed out on the site, but for the most part, many folks can be trusted. This does not mean it’s wise to hand over the keys to your supply shed, though!

Getting involved, and making contacts can be as simple as increasing your hunting group. You’re much more likely to meet like-minded folks hunting then attending a Drag Race, right? What about forming a home canning group, as was suggested on this site? Ham Radio (to be discussed in another post at length) draws many independently-minded folks who are more likely to have an interest in prepping. Gun ranges and getting involved with archery is another meet-and-greet place.

* * *

Note: The survival skills mentioned in this post must be practiced before things get difficult, or it will be a major drain on your precious time and can be life threatening. Look for the follow-up post next week.

I’m bound to have left out other solutions for adding to your numbers–David covers this topic in both the SurviveInPlace.com course and the FastestWayToPrepare.com course, which I encourage you to go through, but there are just as many scenarios as there are people. So, what makes sense for your particular situation? Have you thought ahead about banding together for survival? If so, please share by commenting below! It could save a life!

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{ 125 comments… read them below or add one }

+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Rocky
June 29, 2012 at 5:29 am

David! Really enjoy the newsletters but I must confess when I think of diva I think of spoiled singer Whitney Houstin.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 5:41 am

Rocky,
Survival Diva here. There are times I wished I was spoiled…but I live off-grid and am self-sufficient and defiantly not spoiled ( :

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Rocky
June 29, 2012 at 7:36 am

No offense intended mam. It was just the first thing I always think of when I hear the word diva. I was not making any accusations. If I offended I truly apologize.

Semper Fi!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Rockdog
June 29, 2012 at 6:47 am

//when I think of Survival Diva// maybe that’s the problem here. More time and energy needed for what’s being said, not Who is saying it! The info is spot on and appreciated. Keep up the good work, Diva.

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+4 Vote -1 Vote +1Harold
June 29, 2012 at 6:48 am

Kicking people out of a group sounds like a security threat. Angry people can bring otherangry and hungry people back with them. I suggest that part of the training is in how to live in a culture of honor. Danny Silk is the author of such materials. A class learning this way of life may also be an excellent recruiting place to find people of similar values.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 11:48 am

Harold & Crystal,
It’s true sending off a member of the group may leave them wanting to retaliate. That’s one very good reson to make the decision to invite only those willing to help themselves.

I’m thinking a 1-week wake up call will let them see the light. There’s always the possibility their being alone, made to fend for themselves, may shake them out of their selfishness.

Few of us have been confronted with a life where we have been forced to live without creature comforts. Some will snap. Others will man up and get the job done. Still a person’s basic personality will tell you a bit about what to expect from them. That and discernment ( :

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Vote -1 Vote +1Caribou
June 29, 2012 at 7:49 pm

Diva, There is precedence of just this punishment, as I suspect you know. In eskimo villages someone who had overstepped the acceptable parameters of society was expelled for one month. If they survived this ordeal they were allowed back into the community. If this was not sufficient to change their actions they were expelled permanently. This was in most cases a death sentence. Even today this practice is still in force, although it is no longer a death sentence as the expelled move from the village to a city. Still the threat of being removed from everyone you have known from birth is quite effective.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 30, 2012 at 1:38 am

Caribou,
This is interesting. I may have heard of this as a child, and filed it in my memory bank to put in place now, but until your post I had thought I was just using common sense. Although I’m not a native, I’ve always respected the elders wisdom.

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1"Eltexan"
June 29, 2012 at 6:49 am

Hey Diva / David / et.al.
Good Post! Technically, a “band” is any group of people joined together by shared goals and objectives.” I approached this from a very slightly different perspective in what I sent to my “clients”. I’m not going to try to re-type the whole thing here and I don’t know how to send you an attachment in this comment but I approached it as a puzzle with slots to fill. The basics for survival are air, water, food, shelter and protection and cooperation – not necessarily in that order. It depends on the situation. Somehow, folks must fill those slots with people who have appropriate knowledge, ability and mind-set. As you said, it would be very difficult for one family to fill all of the slots. As a part of the process I suggested an experience / skills inventory for all members of a family and for potential band members. Yes, this is time consuming but a lot of folks I know think that they are totally self-sufficient and don’t, or won’t, accept the fact that one weekend camping trip qualifies them for ultimate long-term survival. Such an inventory helps identify weak spots in your group or, if there is no band of your own, could help to “sell” your membership in another band.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1R DAvid Kryder
June 29, 2012 at 6:53 am

Survival Diva,
I appreciate your common sense observations. Good work!

I have a question that I’d appreciate you/David addressing (for those of us living in an urban area rather than “off the grid”): In a crisis, with no public services, how does on dispose of the body of a loved one (or others, too)? This is no small problem; one of public health.

Can you offer suggestions/recommendations?

Thank you,
RDK

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Vote -1 Vote +1Gulfcoast Gal
June 29, 2012 at 10:15 am

RDK: Perhaps you’ve just identified another valuable role in a small community. Few will be prepared or willing to manage this critical (for health concerns) task.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 10:18 am

R DAvid
I hope you know I skipped breakfast after thinking about your question ( :

It’s important to be mentally prepared for such an outcome. The reason for a death dictates how burial is approached. Should deaths be due to a pandemic, I personally would stay indoors, away from contact with others for obvious reasons. This automatically would mean burial will be difficult if not impossible.

Should it be because of a weather-related emergency or anything other than disease-born illness, burial in the ground seems to be the answer, but I’m no expert.

Water CAN be contaminated when a body is allowed to remain, so it’s wise to keep that in mind.

It is said that bodies (on land, that is) don’t pose the threat to the living it’s long been warned of when it doesn’t involve plague or disease-born illness, but somehow, I have a hard time believing that…

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Vote -1 Vote +1Gulfcoast Gal
June 29, 2012 at 1:19 pm

http://www.searo.who.int/LinkFiles/List_of_Guidelines_for_Health_Emergency_Disposal_of_dead_bodies.pdf

Rule of thumb: Life (your safety) trumps proper burial.

Back to RDK’s question: For loved ones, this may mean storing the body of a loved one until it can safely be buried. Large, heavy-duty garbage bags may serve as temp body bag to control odor. If you can’t store the body in your domicile, think apartment rooftop, parking garage, empty apartment… until services are restored. Make sure the body of a loved-one is properly identified for disaster relief teams in your absence. There are so many scenarios, I would suggest doing a little research on the internet to answer your own question specific to your personal situation. In many urban/suburban neighborhoods, we have 95-gallon garbage cans (for mechanical pick-up). Such a can would at least help control odor and keep vermin away from a body until it can be buried. May you never have the need to remember that!

Re: “others”
Are we talking zombies here? Again, do a little research today on the internet. –GG

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Vote -1 Vote +1Lone Ranger
July 19, 2012 at 1:28 pm

Burn.

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-1 Vote -1 Vote +1ShipCarpenter305
June 29, 2012 at 6:54 am

Yeah, Rocky. What does a girl who grew up homesteading in Alaska and now lives off-the-grid know! “Banding…”, Looting…”, Water & Sewer…”, Food Storage…”. ‘Bout the only thing missing is guns and shooting, but I suspect she knows more than you and can out shoot me. Keep it coming, Barbara. You’ve provided more meat on this forum than most!

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1Rocky
June 29, 2012 at 7:34 am

Dear Ship, I am sorry if I offended you mam. That was not my intent. I was just being truthful as to what I think of when I hear Diva. No offense intended.

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+4 Vote -1 Vote +1Nan in NC
June 29, 2012 at 6:55 am

That was a great article. I know we need to band together, but I’m not comfortable approaching strangers about this, and really, the only people I would trust are my two daughters and their families. Unfortunately, one lives in California, and that’s a long trek in a grid-down situation.

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 9:32 am

Rocky,
No offense taken, and thank you for your message. Actually, some family members call me Debbie Downer because I refuse to give up on waking them up.

It dawned on me I should describe how I live, so readers can know a little about my background. Here goes:

ShipCarpentar was correct (Thank You!); I grew up on an Alaskan homestead with no electricity and no running water. Bathing was done in a wood-fired, slapped-together sauna or the lake the cabin faced. Food was kept in a food cache, high in a tree to keep the bears and critters away from it. We had an outhouse, and when I mention in my survival book we had to dodge moose on the way there, I wasn’t kidding!

My mother is still a dead-eye; went walrus hunting off the bearing strait and hunted moose, caribou and sheep for some of our food. She lives to fish—and you haven’t been fishing until you’ve fished Alaskan waters!. She was a good roll model for a budding survivalist. I will never be as good a shot as she is, and I pity the person who underestimates her. When she visits the cabin, she spends her time target practicing off the deck and usually hits the bulls-eye.

Now I live alone on a homestead in North Idaho. I moved here because the town of 45,000 in Idaho where I once lived wasn’t where I wanted my loved ones to be if the S hit the fan. Not all family members know where my location is because getting provisions for 23 is enough….thank you very much ( : I have chickens and plenty of storage and a simple, smallish cabin that has an astounding view—I live in the mountains. Winters, I can plan on being stranded for weeks at a time (last winter is was nearly 4 weeks). At those times, I get to practice living off food storage, and is good for practice runs. But thank the Lord for electricity! For the time being, anyway. This allows me to write preparedness related articles, in the hope it will help others.

The area where I live is a hunting destination for white tail deer and elk, and if you’re hungry enough: bear (they’re very gamey tasting).

I have set up for all manual (think Little House On The Prairie), and am prepared to convert to a wood cook stove (already installed), a wood heat stove, and manual hand pump for the well. There is septic here, but with 23, I have an outhouse for backup. Luckily, the cabin is set up on a gray water system—tub, sink, and washing machine empties outdoors and doesn’t overtax the septic. This winter, my nearest neighbor and I put up sheet rock in the attic to sleep everyone—they’ll be crammed in like sardines—plus they really are going to get dish duty for penance of being non-believers ( :

I have oil lamps and a very extended food storage, but have heirloom seed and plenty of land for a large garden. Have several food preservation methods in place, as that will be necessary.

There are eggs that have been preserved (up to 6 months) and stored in cartoons stacked in my storage shed, and home canned butter on the pantry shelves. Cheddar cheese preserved in cheese wax hang from the ceiling of my storage shed—it’ll keep for years.

Tools are all manual: tree felling ax, 2-man saw, extra lumber and misc. building supplies. Have a Burkey water filter and plenty of replacement filters. Have a shelf full of reference books and medical and hygine supplies on hand.

Found a trundle sewing machine a while back, so I can barter my sewing skills for things I run out of.

All of these prepping goods were possible because I pulled the plug on dinners out, vacations, designer clothes & furnishings, movies out. I miss it…sometimes. But all I have to do is think about my loved ones and I have the answer why it’s all worth it.

I wrote Survival: Prepare Before Disaster Strikes over a year ago because I wanted to help people prepare wisely, with NO paranoia, on a budget. I also wanted to give folks hope it’s possible to get prepared, even on a punishing budget, because I’m a living example. We all have life experiences to share. Mine happens to be preparedness ( :

Like every prepper I’ve ever met, I am convinced I’ll never be finished. A 4-wheeler is the one luxury I really want to get! The crummy part of getting that 4-wheeler is having to shell out for 55-gallon drums of gas and digging the hole it will go in.

That’s about it. Now, I’m going to find where I hid that diamond tiara…Yep, I’m just kidding!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Trevor
June 29, 2012 at 10:51 am

You are my hero. I’m trying to raise my daughters to be ready for a non-make up and electric world. It will be a wake up for my teenagers. Just praying for a couple more years for prep time. Need some more guns and water in AZ is a big problem but that is where the pool will come in handy. Keep up the great work.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 11:50 am

Trevor,
Boy would I love to start a survival boot camp for females!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 3:42 pm

Why not? OpSec concerns but realistically you must have great security defense/reaction in place anyways. OpSec will be local w/in 100 miles or so. If things go south, transportation will be an issue. If a former student is tough and resourceful enough to show up at your doorstep, they would probably be an asset. It brings in cash, free labor for those many projects, and gives back by training other people to survive in their own locale. You could do summer (etc.) 3-month internships – as well as the 1-week classes.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 4:57 pm

Hodge,
I might. Never thought about it ’till now. The first thing I’d do is confisgate cell phones, so they’d learn instead of text ( :

Next, we’d pull the plug on the electric and live in a grid-down world; wood cook stove, gardening & canning, pulling water from the well, take sponge baths to conserve water, communicate via Ham Radio, target practice, patrol the property, and wake up at dawn to the rooster… They’d hate me for sure. They’d also have a better shot at survival…

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 6:29 pm

Sounds great. It would be a valuable service. Might need to build barracks, good project for your students. Suggest cinder block, earth bermed or partial-to-full-underground which would allow for year around wood heating/cooking. WATERPROOFING a must.

Your thoughts are extensive. To become proficient that will take time suggesting internships – 1-mo, 3-mo, 6-month. Suggest for that length you require a 1-week class before to separate out who’ll stick and who won’t. For internships (limited number) be selective. See Ecology Action’s highly successful intern model ( http://www.growbiointensive.org ). Note: their supper efficient gardening is used in 140 countries, published in about 10 languages.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Lynne Marie
July 15, 2012 at 11:47 am

Dear Diva: I sure wish you would! I’m visiting N.W. Idaho next week to look for a place (far from the Eastern seaboard where we reside) and will stay between Spokane and Blanchard. If you can recommend a realtor, I’d be grateful. Thanks for all you share with us poor folks brought up with conveniences and amenities!
Lynne

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 15, 2012 at 4:10 pm

Lynne,
I’ll ask around about a Real estate person. I know of a great gal, who sold my house in Coeur d’Alene. She’s honest and upfront. I just need to double check that she’s still a RE Agent–it’s been years. I found my the cabin I purchased through craigslist–an owner carry. Another good place to look is the Little Nichols Worth newspaper. An owner-carry will normally reduce the cost by around 6 – 7% IF the seller is being fair.

There’s still plenty of property in Idaho far enough off-grid to avoid the majority of looters. Have you heard of St. Maries, Idaho? It’s around 60 miles from Coeur d’Alene, a small town that has grocery stores, Churches, Hardware stores, restaurants, etc…There is land available outside town and most have a well. Problem is, in any small Idaho town, jobs are hard to come by. If you could make a living online, you’d be set ( :

Anyway, I’ll check with my old real estate agent and get back with you the first of the week.

P.S. Good to hear another prepper’s moving to Idaho!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 25, 2012 at 3:03 pm

Lynne,
Sorry it took so long to get the info, but had to approve posting the info with my RE gal first ( :

Her Name is Haether Callahan
RE Firm:Keller Williams in Coeur d” Alene, Idaho, Northwest Blvd.
(208) 664-3804

She’s the best RE agent I’ve ever met. She’s not necesarily a prepper, but was raised in North Idaho, so she’ll understand what you’re looking for ( :

Hope this helps!

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Mustang75
June 29, 2012 at 12:55 pm

Trevor,
Nice post. I, too live in Central AZ. I believe that the population will rapidly decrease from deaths and scooters looking for less arid land. If you live south of Dead Man’s Gulch (off I-17), you’ve got no chance: gang bangers, refugees, Drug sellers with no buyers, banditos who think we are occupying Mexico, dust storms, and enough concrete to prevent southern AZ from being survivable for 1,000 yrs.

As sad as this sounds, I think we survivalists will be better of if Iran, et al, hit us with an EMP burst. Within a yr 90% of Americans would be dead, but starting over might not be such a bad idea in 1850…also no Stalinist Regime, as is forming now.

Well, now that I have proven to be a complete buzz kill, I deeply regret ruining any ones meal.

Mustang75
LTC, US ARMY, CAVALRY, (ret) – I was also an E-7 when I was Commissioned.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 3:45 pm

Respectfully, not 1850 but closer to 1600. We don’t have the infrastructure to support 1850. Think horse traffic – breeding farms in the tens of thousands, ferries/horseshoes, tack and harness, wagons, etc.

No matter how much you’ve stored – if the disruption goes on long enough – you will run out of it unless you can make, grow, or raise it. This does not mean ‘primitive’. It means accomplishing what you need to by either lo-tech and/or hi-tech. Modern materials combined with old approaches can provide startling efficiencies. Knowledge allows you to down tech while maintaining close to the same stand of living in many areas.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Mustang75
June 29, 2012 at 3:58 pm

Trevor,

Your description sounds like 1850 to me. No offense, I’m just saying…

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Vote -1 Vote +1Mustang75
June 29, 2012 at 4:08 pm

Sorry, I meant Hodge,

Everything you describe seems like 1850…not even a rail road to the west.
In AZ we still have blacksmiths, tack makers…gee, hope they make it thru.

I grow it, I eat it, down to solar panels, treadle sewing machine, and 7 bee hives, 8 on Monday if that wild hive we found this morning isn’t Africanized.

Look, it will be a hard road, and only those willing to go it will survive, or deserve to.

America must be reset, and if 1600 (I don’t really think so) 1850 is the price, then it must be paid.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 6:43 pm

Trevor compadre, you are well prepared. My only point was our remaining ‘infrastructure’, i.e. how we ‘easily’ obtain replacement parts/goods/transportation, is far closer to 1600. The example of horses at 1850 level is something we do not have now. Multiply by 1,000 times.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Mustang75
June 30, 2012 at 12:41 pm

Hodge, old son;

I LIVE IN CENTRAL ARIZONA! Horse ranches abound. Within 5 miles of my house there are hundreds of horses. Eventually we’ll need more, but most people today don’t ride, those few who remain/survive will learn and the studs will have a great time.

As preppers we are autofriends, so I didn’t intend to insult, but rather to say where you live makes a difference, man, that’s why I moved out west when I retired from the Army.

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Vote -1 Vote +1MP
June 30, 2012 at 1:15 pm

The reasoning behind things being closer to 1600 would be because in 1850, besides the infrastructure, the people were acclimated to living in those conditions, they were used to what few things they had at their disposal tech-wise, they didnt have to worry about reverting back to low tech, we would. People having to go from AC cooled and electrically lighted homes to the sweatboxes that the modern houses would become and have to live off of what they can grow or hunt (surprisingly some people’s bodies can’t handle “natural” foods as good when consumed all the time), or having to do A LOT of walking or biking to get around, you can see how it would be more like the dark ages for most people. The only exceptions in a post EMP scenario are those who prepared and optimized the capabilities of “EMP Proof” tech (old cars, tube radio equipment, maybe solar panels directly charging batteries for incandescent lights and other non solid state hardware) or actually managed to stockpile a lot of electronic stuff (including electronic components to repair items that have fried. Those preppers would almost be like lords in a land of serfs to a degree.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Eddie Hinson
July 1, 2012 at 10:18 am

I love Idaho, I have a friend from Vietnam that is an Idaho native, he grew up ranching, and still lives on the old family ranch. I have another really good friend that lives in Idaho City, he just retired from the Forest Service, he is an Idaho native that grew up in Hailey. We travel from NC each year to Idaho to do a little Elk and deer hunting with our friend, his son works on a ranch just outside Cascade(summer range).Also another son that is a biologist who lives in Lewiston. After hunting we cut and split about 12 cords of fire wood for the winter. Although we grew up about 2500 miles apart we both share the knowledge of survivorship. I look forward to my next trip out to see my friends. Survival Diva, you live in God’s country with some good people around you.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 2, 2012 at 1:37 pm

Eddie,

It is God’s Country. Tell you what, I’ll cook up a HUGE BBQ if you all head this way to cut and split 12 cods of wood here…( :

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Vote -1 Vote +1John
June 29, 2012 at 9:46 am

Nan,
what area in NC do you live?

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Vote -1 Vote +1John
June 29, 2012 at 10:02 am

Nan,
What part of NC do you live?

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+3 Vote -1 Vote +1Faye
June 29, 2012 at 7:07 am

Diva, one thing you might want to mention to your readers is to acquire a commerical mop bucket with a wringer.

Should there be no power (or should we not be able to afford electric) a mop bucket with a wringer can easily be used to do laundry. As you said, it will be work, however, the wringer will make it easier and the clothes will dry faster, without the excess water.

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 10:00 am

Faye,
You’re spot-on about the wringer mop bucket. I mentioned it in One Step Ahead Of Grid-Down, but it’s worth mentioning again. Lehman’s sells manual agitator for around $20. I’ll be posting a great recipe for laundry soap that’s dirt cheap and solves storage issues. Actually, I am planning a post on little known solutions to prep on a budget that will include preserving eggs and cheese and how to home can butter, just as our forefathers did.

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+3 Vote -1 Vote +1David
June 29, 2012 at 7:13 am

Good information, but leaves out the single most important question. It pertains to family and those you may wish to recruit. Do you trust them? If you don’t completely trust them relationship, skills and equipment are completely irrelevant. Skills can be taught, supplies shared, you cannot make an untrustworthy person trustworthy.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 3:55 pm

Spot on David. There will be groups. As you’ve pointed out wouldn’t you really like to have done some up-front evaluation on trustworthiness, strengths, weakness, loyality to the group, etc. Accomplishing, fixing, re-building will require interacting with other groups too.

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+4 Vote -1 Vote +1Charles,,,,
June 29, 2012 at 7:20 am

OHHH MY GOSH, what a qundry, our core family is at 32 member’s from 9 months old to 76 years old, guess how many are prepping, OUI, me, myself and I, well wife too but we are one. At family gathering’s I hear talk of this and that happening, with the last statement being well if something happens I am heading to Unkle’s house, I have been an avid gardener and keep a few barnyard animal’s which they reap the free stuff from the garden and egg’s blah blah blah, so they know there is some food here, oh boy, but thank you for the wake up call, I do have to address this and soon, so many way’s for this all to go wrong, yet bettah now then lattah when they all show up, thanks for making my life miserable, jk…… it will spark the good in some and the evil in others, why do so many think if you have then they should get too? Odd thoughts, I’ll share this article with the wife and we can prepare a basic plan to address this SOON !!!!

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Trevor
June 29, 2012 at 10:55 am

Our society has been taught for at least the past 30 years that those who have, got it dishonestly and that “fairness” means equality of results. I have a big extended family too but I have a couple brothers who are prepping but I will have a lot of freeloaders I am afraid and their masters degrees in education will have little barter value when TSHTF.

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+4 Vote -1 Vote +1Dan
June 29, 2012 at 7:22 am

Great stuff, but never forget the KISS rule:
Rule one: survive the first 30 days. You can do this by buying extra food from Sams Club.
Rule two: Sams club is your friend
if buying for a group, buy gallon containers of food
Buy the 1000 packs of light trash bags, very cheap and great for sanitation (put one in a bucket for a crapper, empty at end of day), and many other uses. Buy the heavier and barrel bags but not for sanitation. Buy the 1 gallon makes 50 gallons of sanitizer, disinfectant, degreaser, $5 each last you a year or more and disease is your enemy.
Buy multiple 25 lb and 10 lb bags of rice (to extend other food) flour, sugar, baking soda, pancake mix. And put these in the original packaging in 5 gallon buckets. For an extra $50 a month, you can have a lot at the end of a year.
Don’t forget cases of top ramen 1 case of that in the cups for travel, several cases for extending other food, easy meals, etc etc etc. Less then $10 a case and lots of meals/meal extenders
Rule three: water – if in a rainy area, first capture rainwater in kiddy pools and buckets.
FIrst filter it through a sheet before you run it through your purification process. keep 2-4 bottles of bleach rather then one large one. Use 5 gallon bucket with sanitizer (above) to rinse dishes after washing them.
Rule 4: Refrigeration: if you have a chest freezer, you can fill above food with 2 litre soda bottles of tap water. Stays good frozen forever, each 2 litre bottle will keep the fridge cold for a day. Can be refrozen by running generator on fridge and freezer twice at 1 hour per day. So your fuel lasts longer and less noise.
Rule 4: power make heavy use of 12v inverters, splurge for a large UPS for datacenter (possibly $1000 or more used). So you can have TV and such while you are running fridge and freezer, and only run the generator every other day for a couple of hours. Large enough, conserve enough and you might be able to go days between charges.
Solar panels: if you have solar panels, you save now, have quiet power later. Ideally install it so it is not readilly visible from the street.
Be careful of generator inside, CO2 detector and exhast is a must. Use it in a garage in a box covered with comforters and such…with a fan blowing air into the box for cooling and O2
Guns: fewer calibers, guns without ammo are terrible clubs.
Ammo/reloading equipment: get all you can, ammo will be better for barter then being used in the gun in most cases. Families will trade ANYTHING for a fist full of bullets for their gun.

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1Mary Ann
June 29, 2012 at 9:46 am

Man Let me be on your team! you think like me.. and have it organized to say.. I’m an ooollld lady.. have more brain than braun. have a lot of prepared food and other things I might need.. very little muscle.. a family that thinks I am nuts.. and what they will get when I pass on will likely be what is left of my preps. Hope I can find someone like you when I need them!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 11:14 am

Mary Ann,
Sending prayers your way. In the meantime, all the braun you need is already there–the guts to prepare!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 4:07 pm

Start building/finding those trustworthy relationships now. :^)) Best to be appreciated in mutual respect and for the value of your skills. Much better than being the new guy whose value is in what others can confiscate.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Montego Man
July 2, 2012 at 8:18 am

Love your ideas and insights. You have it down to a science.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Dan in Colorado
June 29, 2012 at 9:49 am

Hi Dan,
Instead of bottles of bleach, I suggest dry Pool Shock. No expiration date and it works the same. Look online for details on how to use it.

Good tips, I’m making notes and a shopping list, thanks!
Dan in Colorado

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Vote -1 Vote +1MP
June 30, 2012 at 1:19 pm

I’d go for lots of Iodine too, also has the 2nd use as a sterilizing agent for the woulds most will be sure to get doing umpteen chores everyday.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Martin
July 6, 2012 at 8:15 pm

As far as I know, Iodine is no longer available thru normal channels thanks to the meth monsters. However, you can get it from your vet. With horses, it is a common remedy and our vet keeps us stocked. Still would rather use and do use colloidal silver. It is a better antibiotic/anti bacterial and doesn’t sting like iodine. And just as important, when you make it yourself, a whole ton cheaper.

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1CRYSTAL
June 29, 2012 at 7:24 am

THE 1 WEEK VOTE SOUNDS GOOD- BUT IF THERE ARE HARD FEELINGS- THEY WILL SPREAD THE NEWS FAR AND WIDE ABOUT WHERE U R AND WHAT U HAVE….

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 4:17 pm

Sadly, you must provide for the worst case. Not every group member needs to know ALL of the security capabilities. You can ‘direct’ treason into channels that make it easier to handle by showing ‘apparent’ holes in the defense. Hence they get judged by their own behavior.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1KJQ
June 29, 2012 at 7:28 am

The task is daunting. I live in eastern Canada where the climate is harsh. I have tested the waters with some friends but have not been able to find anyone who thinks there’s the slightest need to prepare in any way. I met one man who agrees with me, but he retired and has sold up and moved away (I can’t afford to do that). We’ve made the basic preparations for “survive in place” for up to 6 months (and BOB’s of course), assuming we don’t face hordes of looters as we’re a family of 4 living in a rented suburban home. The only long term plan we have at the moment is some seed banks, and agreement from friends who own some unoccupied land in fertile valley an hour’s drive (2 day walk) away that we can use their land if TSHTF (we’d be tenting until we could build a shack).

Are they any good (and safe) ways/sites to ‘reach out’ online in the hopes there are other preppers in my province?

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 11:20 am

KJQ,

As a matter of fact, David has decided to add a meet-up section on Secretes Of Urban Survival, where you can reach out to others in your area. This site gets TONS of readers who come for survival info–just a few post comments (thank you for the ones that do!). Soon, you’ll be able to make contacts here on the site.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Caribou
June 29, 2012 at 4:39 pm

While I am pro bug in, I appreciate the bug out position. If your plan is to bug out to an undeveloped property you might want to consider a travel trailer or motor home as an option. While a trailer is not as nice as a home it beats the heck out of a tent, especially in a Canadian winter.

To carry this one step further, when funds allow ask your buddy if you can install a septic system. You need a tank and a drain field. You should be able to get a basic idea from the local planning department of what they want. I have built many a system in under a day with a backhoe and a couple guys.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Esteban Cafe
June 29, 2012 at 8:18 am

The thin veneer of civilization is best exemplified by “welfare” or other assistance programs that depend on pulling resources from producers and handing them to voters, uh, I meant to others. When civilization goes down, so do all these programs and voters no longer matter to the powers that be. And preppers intuitively know that welfare-minded people do not suddenly change, but expect a continuation of such largess, thus we see them as a potential (absolute) threat.

There is an old Danish saying: “Fish and friends stink in three days–family in two.” Ok, I added that last part–but I think it makes the point: Diva is correct: make your decisions now–and INFORM those family members you don’t want to NOT show up at your door as they will be turned away. Simply put, decisions made prior to an emergency only need enforcement–should you wait until the arrival of a SHTF moment, then you have both make and enforce a decision…and you’ll have a LOT of input and pressure you don’t need, given the stress you’ll be under. “Babe, we already made that decision in the light of day and they were fully informed, we ain’t going back on our word, that would make us liars” is a good line to use with the spouse. Just get decided on which family members are part of your group ahead of time.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +11LessonSelfDefense.com
June 29, 2012 at 9:02 am

From RapeProof.com: You definitely need to learn unarmed self defense (not martial arts). If you can use your hands to defend yourself, you won’t panic if you don’t have a gun. A gun is just a tool “extender”. The real weapon is the brain of your attacker. Take out the real weapon (brain) and your attacker will be defeated. Coach David

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Vote -1 Vote +1Grandma
July 1, 2012 at 4:10 am

I woke up a little more than a year ago and slowly began prepping with both our son and daughter their spouses and 6 grandchildren under the age of nine all on my heart and mind. They are slowly waking up and no longer threatening to have me commited. WI was ideal in a town of 50,000 to survive. Plently of wildlife and land to garden. What I didn’t see coming was my husband’s promotion within a large company that forced us into relocating just outside Las Vegas. We left some stored food behind and will send them some heritage seed. I had to businesses of my own for the past several years and more friends than I could ever be blessed in having in this lifetime. Now at the ages of 64 and 59 the realazation of my own professions will do me no good. I had an event planning business and I am certain no one will be throwing lavish parties or raising funds for a hospital wing. The other business continues to survive in Vegas where it moved with us althought what actor will be seeking an agent or talent agency when food, water and shelter will be on their mind constantly. Now I worry how we will survive. We have our protection but because the few guns and rifles we possess are registored expect them to arrive at our door to confiscate them before we are quick enough to remove the safety, locate our glasses so our shots will be accurate enough when pulling the trigger. I prepared for the cold not the dessert heat. I taught and spent years as a children’s ministry director as well as studing theology in college so decided what an aging women without a lot of muscle and strenght could do or trade when the rice krispes hit the fan and have become an officiate and ordained minister with a nondemominal christian ministry team. We are still looking for a body of believers that are like minded and who have seen the light, realizing that pray won’t be enough if they haven’t bothered to prepare for something other than the rapture. Six months has come and gone and my husband and I remain alone to face these end times together. After reading the excellent article and what you wonderful people have posted I sincerely ask that you send us to a person or group you might know that could use a non preaching minister who loves the Lord and others. People will need prayer, comfort when the fear losing their loved one and encouragement when things get too hard. My husband, although now behind a desk in his own home office has spent his life repairing turbines at power plants. With age comes wisdom in many areas but is also accompanied by painful knees and backs. We are working on getting as strong now by taking minerals and juicing while watering potted potatoes, tomatoes and carrots in pots that grow too slowly for comfort. A little silver, a few months of food supply and filtered water is not going to help us when limited by all the other physical neccessities can’t be accomplished. Please lead us in the right direction before its too late! I pray we are killed before taken to a reeducational fema camp where human electric shock collars await us. October is coming too quickly! Forgive the typos but on my Blackberry without spell check. It just doesn’t seem that important in the light of what’s coming down the pike in St Louis and the blood shed that will be lost.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 1, 2012 at 11:22 am

Grandma,
I may be missing something…but if you make your living from home, would it be possible to move? Even whith housing upside down, it’s possible to rent it out. I know the Vegas area. My mom (now 86) lived in Beaver Dam, around 90 miles from Vegas. The water is a huge issue. The heat is another. The population is yet another. I know I’m being a Debbie Downer here, but even Lake Powell has shown the signs of a lowered aquifer.

If this helps at all, I’ll be an example. I had a home with 6 bedrooms, 3 bathrooms. Sold it and took off for the mountains. Now living MUCH more simply and am very happy I did. There’s land to grow a large garden, and it’s far off the beaten track. The ones I’ll have to worry about are unprepared neighbors, but not hordes of looters. This area is NOT made up of farms growing vegetables, but is all about small-hold farmers, just barely getting by. They own guns and know how to use them. I’m 5 miles off a little known 2-lane “highway” that’s nothing but dirt roads and home-made street signs the whole way. I figure few will reach my neck of the woods–the small-hold ranchers will have taken care of business before they get here ( :

Such a lifestyle as I describe is not expensive. It IS isolating, however. But it’s doable for most. So, I’ve thrown out this idea in the case it might be a possibility. It’s very unlikely that once Martial Law is in place, any of us will be traveling, looking for that off-grid property.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 1, 2012 at 12:02 pm

Grandma
OOPS! 1 Didn’t have enough coffee! I meant if you’re WORKING from home ( :

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1jackofalltrades
June 29, 2012 at 10:05 am

There is always something else to bring up, but I think in this discussion The most overlooked point is not just sharing, but knowledge sharing as well. We called it cross-training in the military, for the non-vets. Some people may be great at their particular skill, but lousy teachers. Maybe stocking up on how to books for teaching classes for those that have never done it would be a good idea.

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 4:36 pm

Excellent, key point! We may have to rebuild. Passing/discussing knowledge increases solutions and personal survival.

As a side note, none of the ‘traditional’ 3 answers to ‘who-do-you-let-into-your-lifeboat’ are very satisfying. There is a fourth – stock extra and teach. You can make hard-working allies.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Kathleen Morris
July 3, 2012 at 12:10 am

pamspriderecommendations.com has approximately 30 free kindle books to download daily for do it yourselfers. I download these and others at the bottom of the pages on Amazon for other older books of lost skillsets as part of my preparations

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 3, 2012 at 1:35 am

Kathleen,
Went to check it out. It’s a great resource for information. Thank you for your post!

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 30, 2012 at 1:57 am

jackofalltrades,
You’re right. Reference books are a must. If we lived ’till 90, we’d never have all the knowledge it takes to have all the bases covered.

Used books are every bit as good as new for those on a budget. Pulling info from the Internet works too. But instead of putting the info in a folder, or under favorites, print it. Kept in a 3-ring binder, in grid-down, it’ll be there for you.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Sue the Frugal Survivalist
June 29, 2012 at 10:16 am

No one ever addresses how to prepare for mentally ill relatives who show up during a long term survival situation. Some very serious conditions require daily medicine to prevent acute psychosis. How can one prepare for this? What are your options in a crisis situation?

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 11:28 am

Sue,
I wished there was an easy answer for this situation. You might look online for meds, but be careful to make sure it’s a credible site. Doctors are regulated when handing out certain meds, and the net is tightening. As serious as this situation sounds, my alternate suggestion of naturalpathic, alternative meds may be putting a band aid where there needs to be a tourniquet.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 4:40 pm

Veterinary supply houses/sites stock manny of the same medicines with far fewer restrictions.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 4:49 pm

We are a Prozac nation, perhaps as high as 20% regularly using some form or other. 5% of the US is on drugs preventing criminal behavior. So, unfortunately, a month or two down the road . . . .

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Patriot Dave
June 29, 2012 at 10:20 am

I am having difficulty combining the “survive in place” into forming a “group” defense in an urban setting. If I decide to stay put, I will basically be by myself. If my group came to my house, it would get crowded fast. It would strain my resources of my urban plot. We would be very visible in a small house. If others show up empty handed, we would all starve together. The few people I have met, who are also prepping, have the same logistics problems with their houses. If I go to one of their houses, with all my “stuff” it would be crowded quickly. Especially, if a group is planning to meet there. Plus, a lot of other problems, too many to list. It is not like we have large compounds and acres of land to work with. So, How would we work as a group when we are scattered all over the metropolitan area? Especially if you take the worst case scenario of an EMP, biological outbreak, devestating earthquake or some other disaster where travel becomes difficult at best, dangerous or impossible. Anyone have ideas? What have you done to deal with the problem of a group that is currently living apart? Thanks for all the great info I get from you folks.

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Vote -1 Vote +1davidmobile
June 29, 2012 at 3:27 pm

Hey Dave,

In part, it’s about setting your expectations so that they won’t clash with reality.

To start with, no one person can be an expert at everything, stay alert 24/7, and keep a 360 degree watch on things.

Ideally, your group will be made up of immediate neighbors, but in reality that’s rare. They also may be sleeping in tents or tent sized spaces.

Another option is that, as you see neighbors packing up to bug out, ask if they want you to watch their property. In a TEOTWAWKI situation, you can even ask them if you can use their house if they’re not coming back.

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Vote -1 Vote +1P
June 29, 2012 at 10:31 am

Regarding water purification check out the Sawyer Squeeze water filters (http://www.sawyer.com/). They come with THREE different size pouches AND it requires NO pumping! They’re very reasonably priced (around $50) and sold at WalMart, Sportsman’s Warehouse, REI, etc. It’s been named an “Editors’ Choice 2012″ at Backpacker magazine (For the article check out: http://www.backpacker.com/editors-choice-2012-sawyer-squeeze-water-filter/gear/16449 or http://www.backpacker.com/gear-review-sawyer-4-way-water-filter/gear/14992. For a short video watch this and check out the dirty water puddle he’s using and how clean it comes out: http://www.backpacker.com/editors-choice-2012-sawyer-squeeze-water-filter/videos/180).

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Jerry S.
June 29, 2012 at 10:55 am

Great and wonderful words to stay alive by. Don’t forget to train/familiarize yourself with the blow gun, knife and traps for hunting, even in quasi urban areas. Quiet and under the radar. Martial arts is good also. Thank you. Jerry S.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Jerry S.
June 29, 2012 at 10:58 am

I’m sorry. What are you asking of me?

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Vote -1 Vote +1Trevor
June 29, 2012 at 11:10 am

Diva-David – I have one issue I am quite concerned about because I have no easy answer for. I have a type 1 diabetic daughter so without insulin she won’t live. The process to make insulin is quite complex and science intensive (from what I have gathered). I was wondering what advice anyone has for type 1 insulin dependent folks in a grid down. We try and keep a 90 day supply so we are good for short term bumps but right now my options are looting the Walgreens or Walmart pharmacy at the first sign of long term grid down to get all that I can and then pray and hope. Not sure there is more of an answer then trust in God btu was wondering what others have thought on this topic.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Patriot Dave
June 29, 2012 at 1:56 pm

Trevor: I saw a few months ago on another blog about making homemade insulin. They even had a recipe. I read it but did not try to absorb it since it did not apply to me. It’s what they use in 3rd world countries. do an internet search and you may find it. I can see pharmacies being the second target for normally law abiding citizens right after the grocery stores. right before gas stations and guns stores.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Patriot Dave
June 29, 2012 at 2:07 pm

found it. this is a thread on insulin. http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=33479. I hope this helps.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 4:40 pm

Patriot Dave,
This is great info! Thanks for sharing it here.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 7:23 pm

WOW, Patriot Dave. THANKS for finding that great link. I have Type 2 myself. Lucifer’s Hammer by Pournelle and Niven mentioned sheep. Fiction but they did good research. My friend’s father is a retired Veterinarian of 50+ yrs who mention this to him. If I understand correctly, it use to be standard teaching in veterinary schools to teach: 1) how to make insulin; and 2) how to make insulin pumps. Sending link to friend to get his father’s comments. Will share when I get the feedback in a week or two.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Ernest
June 29, 2012 at 11:52 am

Words of wisdom on a tough subject if TEOTWAWKT is to happen folks will be in for a real adjustment. My own family will be some of the worst offenders. My grand children rarely her the word no and live on their electronic devices. I show them other ways to have fun just do the the best you can.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Art
June 29, 2012 at 12:12 pm

Looking forward to maybe starting a “local” group with like interests for the future….
Add me to that list if you have one going.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Richard Ham
June 29, 2012 at 1:18 pm

I am a former Marine who has some things put back, if needed. But I have wanted and looked for a group of good people to join, and share with. I love my coutry but at this time not as well as I did. Freedom is not free, but once lost it is even harder to get it back. I am 64 and a disabled vet, still walking and fending for myself. but one person can find it very hard to surive just being a loner. That is why I want to find a group, where everyone is working for the group not setting back and waiting for some elsae to take care of them. If you can help me in any way, than tanks. but if you cann’t than God be with you.

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Vote -1 Vote +1KEN
June 29, 2012 at 2:45 pm

THIS MAY SEEM OFF THE WALL, WHEN LOOTERS SHOW UP AT YOUR DOOR AND AREN’T INTIMIDATED BY YOUR FRIENDLY PERSUADER AND A FIRE FIGHT STARTS, WHAT IS TO BE DONE WITH ALL THE BODIES. JOHNNY LAW WON’T BE AROUND TO STEP IN, SHOULD A MASS-GRAVE BE PREDUG FOR THEM OR YOU. HUMAN FLESH WILL ROT REALLY QUICKLY AND THE SMELL, I WON’T GO INTO THAT. I HAVEN’T SEEN ANYTHING ABOUT DISPOSAL METHODS, ANY HINTS.

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Vote -1 Vote +1davidmobile
June 29, 2012 at 3:32 pm

You’re right…we haven’t covered ttp’s for burying bodies, and we don’t have that particular topic scheduled out for the next several weeks :)

Seriously, though, while it is a topic worthy of consideration, it is too esoteric for this blog. We try to focus more on skills that people will have a high probability of needing in a disaster situation with an emphasis placed on those skills that people can apply immediately in their everyday lives.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Caribou
June 29, 2012 at 8:41 pm

Assuming that there is no functional 911 then friends and family get buried, raiders and looters get buried or dumped where they will not pose a health problem. Body bags are rather inexpensive and can be purchased through most EMS supply houses.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Grandma
July 1, 2012 at 5:08 am

My husband is twice my size and so far there are only the two of us. There’s no way that I would be able to lift or move dead weight and thought about us both slowly digging our own grave before anything comes down the pike. Maybe its not too late to lose a few more pounds. This would all be funny as heck if it weren’t true. The burial of my husband is something that I will have to wing when the time comes. Even moving dead weight an inch seems impossable.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Jan
June 29, 2012 at 2:54 pm

One thing comes to mind for me. Make sure you have PERMISSION to join others.I was going to survive in place, but feel we’re too close to the city, so looked for bugout locations Talking with my sister, her and her husband plan on bugging out to the inlaws in the country. She invited me down there but ASSUMED it would be OK. I asked her to check, because what if the other side of inlaws family are coming in too? 10 acres can get overrun in a hurry (a party brings in 40-50 relatives!) Cousin wants me down with her (suburban/semi rural development). Another offered his place, but he will have problems for a while because he lives across the street from an Aldi’s. No matter what, I need to be with others because of my health and health of the 2 family with me – husband with dementia, mom 82yrs old,(health problems) but still moving.
Something just as,,well, gruesome as body disposal (see grapes of Wrath!) is those of us who have family in nursing homes. What becomes of them? At some point I’m sure caregivers will desert for thier own sakes, who is paying for the supplies to run the places, etc…?

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Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
June 29, 2012 at 10:41 pm

Jan, 10 acres are a lot of food production potential and could handle 50 people. Vertical, intensive raised-bed companion planting, and hydro/aquaponics gardening methods greatly increase produce while greatly reducing area needed. Ecology Action method’s use 67-88% less water and generally produces 2-3 times more than commercial farming. This is using medium developed soil, advanced can do much more. Examples lbs. per 100 sq. ft (Comm./med EA/adv EA).: Irish potatoes (84.6 / 200 / 780); Onions, regular (101.4 / 200 / 540); Onions, torpedo (101.4 / 400 / 800+); and Leaf lettuce (56.1 / 202 / 540). See their website ( http://www.growbiointensive.org ) for free video lessons and downloads.
Two posts that I and a friend produced might be helpful: “Riots and Food” (2/7/ 2011, triggered by David’s SIPs of 12/9 and 12/30 in 2010) and “Preparedness Part 6 – Food Management” (11/8/2010) -
http://www.4thtriage.blogspot.com/2011/02/riots-and-food.html
http://www.4thtriage.blogspot.com/2010/11/preparedness-part-6-food-management.html

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Vote -1 Vote +1Loa Kirk Andersen
June 29, 2012 at 3:00 pm

I have a similar problem…no one in my immediate area is a prepper. I’ve done what I can, but would love to have a ‘cohort’ even just to compare notes and ideas. I’m anxiously awaiting your way to contact like-minded folks in my area. Thanks for all the ideas.
Diva, I’m very impressed with your lifstyle….I’lm trying to emulate you! God bless!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 29, 2012 at 4:32 pm

Loa,

This is what is so wonderful about exchanging ideas with other preppers–thank you for the kind words. I guarantee you, I’ve never heard them from my family…yet ( :

On the positive side, my kids were raised Alaskan…which means they’re tough and they’re familiar with the outdoors, roughing it, and their Mom and Uncle and Grandma’s “weirdness”…LOL

God Bless You, Too

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Vote -1 Vote +1Grandma
July 1, 2012 at 4:55 am

Didn’t that 90 day supply of insulin get left out of the freig or behind at a hotel? Get more beginning now! Time is running short. If you do everything you can humanly do then all any of us can do is trut that God will provide it or cure her. I will place you and your daughter on my prayer list. He will give you direction as to where to find the right answer for the insulin problem. My husband is down to two different perscriptions and we are both trying to find natural remedies so we don’t have to see a doctor and be relient on them or the drug companies. I am in WI but fly back to Vegas tonight. I read something that might be of interest to you and save your daughter’s life! I promise to find it once home and post it on this site by the end of the week!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Martin
July 6, 2012 at 8:58 pm

Also, please remember not to let the insulin freeze. And also don’t bother spending the money for more than a years worth. I’m told unlike most medications where the experiation date doesn’t really matter, for insulin it really does. This comes from my daughters doctor. If anyone knows for absolute sure, please post a response. I have first hand knowlege of the freezing as we accidently let vials get too close to the freezer and it became useless.

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Vote -1 Vote +1AFVet
June 29, 2012 at 4:04 pm

Here’s a tip for purifying water. I recently read that if you strain the water with a cloth & put it in a glass container, like a gallon jug, & place it in the sun for about two hours, the sun will purify it. Haven’t tried it, but it was from a reliable source.

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Vote -1 Vote +1c
June 29, 2012 at 7:19 pm

from what ive heard about making water safe to drink using this it needs to be for more then a couple hours

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Barbara
June 29, 2012 at 5:03 pm

The Church that I belong to has always urged preparedness. I started preparing when I got married in 1952. I have my years supply of food and dry goods, batteries, candles, etc.
I learned how to sew every article of clothing that a woman wears, made crazy quilts, table clothes, clothes for all my children. I learned to bottle fruit and did it for years. Tomorrow I am putting up cherries with the help of a grandaughter. I learned how to cook with alternate methods. I am in the process of making a list to update our food supply. Problem- my husband & I are both in wheel chairs, I have a home health nurse that comes in twice a week and several grandchildren that come on other days to help. It is hard to get through a day when everything is working. Even though I have prepared, I am no longer able to do it. My children and grandchildren will be coming here if problems arise as they are not as into preparedness as I am. One big problem that I have not prepared for is when the electicity goes out. Need to have some way to recharge my power chair. I read about the golf cart battery, but don’t know how to get an adaptor for it. I would appreciate any suggestions. We are also on a very tight budget, but I really need to do something to generate electicity.
The Church of Jesus Christ has a web site named Provident Living. It is very helpful in learning about preparedness. Anyone that would like to go to lds.org and then type in Provident Living is most welcome to do it. I have a very deep feeling that there is not much time left to prepare. Good luck to you all. Barbara

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Joanna
June 30, 2012 at 10:05 am

We have used an inverter hooked to our vehicle’s battery to run various small electrical items such as C-Pap, wheat grinder and Bosch mixers. The inverter can run these appliances without the vehicle even running. Harbor Freight has solar panels that can charge car batteries. You’d have to determind how many watts are needed to charge your power chair and then buy the appropriate inverter, as they come in different wattages.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Martin
July 6, 2012 at 9:07 pm

Barbara, I’m not LDS, but do live here amongst many. I can’t believe the church would not help you with your problem. If not the church. then for sure fellow members. Here where I live, the Mormans seem to go out of their way to assist others, even non members. I’m sure if you ask your Brothers and Sisters for assistance, you would get it.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1steve b
June 29, 2012 at 6:56 pm

Absolutely love this website!!! A ton of info here for anyone/all to share and learn from!!!
I would love to be able to bug out and live off the land,but reality sets in and my better half is premanently disabled and she is my main priority in any route I choose.I continue to stash food stuff/ammo/supplies away with the tight budget we have to work with.
Thank you for all the past/present and future info to date!!!
SCB

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+2 Vote -1 Vote +1Joseph morehouse
June 29, 2012 at 11:40 pm

Hello
I have been prepping for awild and I have nearly 2 years of food set aside , so far , I have been learning how to raise tilapia in a large 100 gal tank , have a large garden , I now have chickens , for eggs and meat , order 3 pairs of flemish rabbits,they grow to 20 pounds with the right care.They are known to have large litters, plenty of meat. I have a large seed bank , a ton of salt,adding wood burning stove to the house for heating and cooking,have outdoor oven for cooking , it a native desizn, it works great. I have taught myself how to stitch and make clothes. I canned food, dehydrate food , I will order honey bee next year to bee keep. I am buying rain barrles one amonth until I have 12 barrles. I will be taking medical classes this fall at our local community collage to learn proper first aid, we have learn how to shoot a gun,I’m better with a compound bow .The property is fortified , I have 4 large solar panel , haven’t put them up yet,several pounds of silver , pound of gold ,large number of hand tools-shoves,rakes,hand saws,2 man saws ,axes, post hole diggers, and so on .Teaching myself how to repair bikes . We are planning to bug in and try to hold are ground.Please tell me if I’m missing anything , or am I doing thinks wrong , it taken me servall years to get to this point and I still don’t feel ready or safe?

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 30, 2012 at 2:14 am

Joseph,
You’re ahead of the curve! Have you put aside medical and dental supplies? If not, there will be an upcoming post on this. Only other thing to be thinking about not mentioned here is enough people to keep what’s yours secure–if possible.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Joseph morehouse
June 30, 2012 at 3:16 pm

Thank you for the advice, Survival diva , no I haven’t prep for dental supplies , as where I live there very few people I can trust , they are mostly people either on drugs or making drugst,they ran off most of the decent familys. I can’t afford to move ,.but most of all this is my home My family was here first ,we own this home since 1972 and I really don’t want to leave it.nearly none of my family prep they think it awaste of time.
I want to thank David and Survival Diva for your help with all the info on prepping-Thank you.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 1, 2012 at 10:50 am

Joseph,

Dental supplies can be purchased online. I’ll be writing about this soon. Otherwise, one of the best books on Dental care and emergencies is “When There Is No Dentist” by Murray Dickson. This book even gives a list of what instruments to keep on hand, and even shows how you can make some of them yourself.

Another great reference book is “When There Is No Doctor” by David Werner. Both books were written for third-world medical & dental emergencies where supplies are lacking. They’re affordable–around $10 each.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Joseph morehouse
July 2, 2012 at 11:55 am

Thank you
I will put the books on my list.

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Hipockets
June 30, 2012 at 12:20 am

Guess I’m lucky; My partner in life is into prepping,plus a son & Granddaughter. My boyfriends family are all tough people,loggers,trappers,hunters,fishermen and know a lot
about surviving. We’re all also hard workers. It’s some of the women that would be real pains
to put up with in a SHTF situation. They live in LA LA land and don’t have a clue about
survival and the chores one would have to do. How do you smartin them up??Can’t tell the
husband not to bring them. Guess it would come to “Help with the chores are you don’t eat.”
We plan on staying at our home( 3 acres just out of town’) for the 1st few days . Have a couple
locations to bug out to,one at a lake. We keep our camper stocked with survival gear we’d need,and have 4 pickups to haul the bulky stuff. Due to being raised in my Great Grandmothers’
homestead with no electricity,outhouse,etc and living on a Reservation with the same conditions,I know how to survive without the modern gadgets. My age is becomming the main
issue now,but I know how to delegate,so will let the younger ones do the heavy work. The way
our country is headed right now,don’t think it will be long before we’ll be using the things we’ve been stocking up on’ Good Luck everyone and don’t forget to keep God in your lives.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
June 30, 2012 at 1:54 pm

To The Group

Here is the Meet-Up Link:
http://secretsofurbansurvival.com/forumdisplay.php?10-Local-Meet-Ups

It’s a start to open up the possibility to meet others of like mind, which we all know isn’t easy!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Tom
July 1, 2012 at 12:27 pm

An excellent place to check for food that will keep for years is an online food distributor. It’s called Thrive. Try it. The food will keep you alive. Also get a vacuum packer at Wal-mart and vacuum pack dry beans, rice etc. to give it a longer shelf life
As so many of you have said, there will be no electricity, gasoline, food in stores or any of the necessary items we take for granted when this thing comes.
I’m lucky iI guess, never had electric lights or running water until I went aboard my Destroyer in the fiftys. Yeah, I know, guess I’m a redneck from New Mexico!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Martin
July 6, 2012 at 9:38 pm

If you want to preserve dried beans, rice, grains in bulk, you can use food grade 5-6 gallon plastic buckets with the twist tops. A couple ounces of dry ice placed on top of the food, place the top on but not tight for a few hours. The dry ice removes all the oxygen. Seal the lid tight and the dry food will last more years than you can remember what to do with it. I did this with 300 lbs of winter wheat in a 55 gallon metal drum with metal lock ring and 8oz of dry ice over night before tightening the ring. They say this will be good for a minium of 25 years. CAUTION Don’t seal the containers tight right away, wait until the dry ice has done it’s job. I also swear by the vaccum sealer and use it for all our game meats which we don’t can and also for fresh pumpkin .

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Tom
July 1, 2012 at 12:30 pm

P.S. Don’t forget to rely on God, if you believe in Him, He does answer prayers!!!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Micheal
July 1, 2012 at 9:35 pm

Hi Diva, I went to the meet-up link you shared at the bottom of the comments, went there and registered, but when I tried to add my location – I couldn’t fine the red “New Topic” button. Where is it located?

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 2, 2012 at 10:18 am

Micheal,
I’m just famialiarizing myself with the Meet Up. I’ll have your answer soon!

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 3, 2012 at 1:27 am

Micheal,
The “red Button” message has been removed. It appears it was a glitch. I posted under Idaho, which wasn’t represented until now, and it took my message without a problem. Hope this helped, and I’m sorry for the delay. Should be good to go now!

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Ruth
July 2, 2012 at 2:24 am

I have been reading, taking notes and mentally preparing myself for the future…or the lack there of …..It is so super that there is a site like this to ‘talk’ to others who want to do what they can, for as long as they can and want to help others out etc….community is more than just who lives around you these days, with the internet….for now we can share and talk; getting to know one another etc…..LOTS of super ideas…When I next come back on this site I wish to share a site that I have found that has some really good ideas as well, that can help. Later new friends…..

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Vote -1 Vote +1FuzzyLee~
July 3, 2012 at 1:07 am

I guess I’m not alone with you folks that we have peepes who don’t believe we should prepare for ourselves,, gotta a son & his wife who laughs at me , fortunately my wife tolerates my ‘preparedness’ ,,, Most in our lil’ Okie community don’t communicate an interest or they’re smart enuff not to broadcast it… I would recommend beyond Ham Radio, get a couple 2 or 4 40 band channel FERS -family emergengency radios ,most have a 20 mile range…. also, go to OFF THE GRID NEWS -excellent articles…..

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Vote -1 Vote +1Martin
July 6, 2012 at 10:16 pm

Fuzzy Lee, please remember the so called 20 mile range for these radios is ‘line of sight’. in other terms, if you live in the plains country with no hills or mountains, ya might get 20 miles in a perfect scenero. By all means, these radios can be invaluable, have them and use them, but don’t count on the 20 miles. They don’t replace Ham radios. Get your ham license and more power even in simplex (line of sight) as reported on this site.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Wild Bill
July 3, 2012 at 5:30 pm

New to the site… even though we’re living in a very rural place, we’re still prepping. Not going to list a lot of preps (OPSEC) we have trying to impress anyone, but I will let a few things slip..

I’m a combat vet, now disabled. I’m still active enough to be able to work the farm and hunt, and I count my blessings I got that going for us.

One thing I have not seen mentioned here, and don’t laugh, is sandbags. Yeah, those green sandbags that the military uses. I’ve got about a thousand of them out in the garage (not filled) that I can use to reinforce around windows and such. Our home is over 100 years old and built of heavy timbers with plaster walls. It’s not bullet transparent, but it will stop some lighter projectiles. We’re planning on holeing up here if Bad Things happen, it’s as good a place as any, far from any major cities and at least a half hour as the crow flies from “town”… well off the beaten path. If looters make it this far, they must be really desperate and hungry. And armed. And that got me thinking…

So, about two months ago I went looking for sandbags. The military green kind, not the white ones used to keep water back during a flood. Stacked 3 or 4 deep, from floor to about chest height, they make formidable bullet stoppers. If they’re on the inside of the house, nobody need know you fortified your home.

Luck to you all and God bless..

Wild Bill

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 3, 2012 at 6:51 pm

Wild Bill,
Thank you for posting this. It makes sense and it’s affordable. Would also be a great solution for weak links like sliding glass doors–have been researching soulutions for that.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Wild Bill
July 4, 2012 at 6:22 pm

Howdy Diva,

I know it’s “Urban Survival”, not “surviving in the boonies”, but I thought folks might want to think about this kind of thing anyways… the principals are the same, just the locations are different…

We used to live in a fairly big town and prepped as best we could back then (before we bugged out to here), had stuff like mylar sheeting over the windows to keep glass shards from flying around in case of a tornado and the windows blew out (an idea observed and adopted from my time in Europe… because of the threat of bombings, all our windows had mylar coverings. Held the glass together pretty well in the event of a pressure wave), GOOD bags, weps, ammo, food, etc..

One of my friends was in Bosnia back during the late unpleasantness and he picked up several ideas which he passed on to me. Sandbag idea was actually his, not mine, after seeing what the locals were doing… the locals used whatever they had to make their homes as bullet-resistant as possible.

If it’s stupid, but works, then it ain’t stupid.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 4, 2012 at 10:43 pm

Wild Bill,
Around 81% of the populace live in urban areas, but for the most part, the comments shared at Secretes of Urban Survival will work in the country and the city, with a few exceptions.Those of us who live rurally (there’s a mixture who visit this site regularly) appreciate new ideas, so don’t be shy!

Your sandbag suggestion could help fortify ANY dwelling. I have them as well (not filled yet), but as long as there is dirt or sand around, it could help help keep a person safe.

I’m sure you’ve read here that more than not have a similar problem with unprepared family members. It’s a difficult reality, but it’s been suggested here, and I agree, it might be best to let them know if you won’t be able to help them if things go south. Either that, or stock up on food and medical supplies ( :

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Hodge
July 6, 2012 at 6:23 pm

Wild Bill, Great suggestion about the bags and covings for windows. I wonder if 1/4″ ‘rabbit fencing might work better the the mylar for ventilation and defensive. Might even move the ‘sceen’ out some (maybe slanted) to keep unwanted things (torches/explosives) further away from house. Too much of it might compromise OpSec. Something to think about for me.

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Vote -1 Vote +1Wild Bill
July 8, 2012 at 4:51 pm

Hi Hodge..

The mylar coverings were not loose coverings, it was stuck directly to the windows, like window tint. Both sides. You could still see through it and open the windows no problem for ventilation… it’s just that if something shattered the window (tornado, bomb, bullet, etc.), the window would stay together instead of shattering into a thousand razors…. you can obtain mylar window film online in various tints, mostly to block out UV rays.

About the sandbag idea. I got no heartburn using them here in the house, since the whole place is way overbuilt (if the floor can support my gun safe, then it can support sandbags), but in a smaller dwelling without such robust construction, it might damage the floor, etc. It would stink if someone went through the trouble of filling and laying dozens of sandbags, only to have their floor collapse from the weight. Still, short of armor plating the entire house with laminated steel plates, I can’t think of a more cost effective way of making your house bullet-resistant than sandbags…

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Vote -1 Vote +1Lynne Marie
July 15, 2012 at 12:28 pm

Diva and Wild Bill: I”d read that acrylic sheets installed over windows won’t break like glass, they’re more resistant. I also saw – and sorely wish I’d purchased – 8 by16 sheets of bullet proof wallboard on Craigs LIst. This material is used to build police stations, but I don;t know what they cost brand new.
Lynne

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Vote -1 Vote +1Survival Diva
July 15, 2012 at 8:07 pm

Lynne,
I have never heard of bullet proof wallboard. Will check it out and post the info, unless you post the particulars first. This would be awesome to have!

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+1 Vote -1 Vote +1Wild Bill
July 4, 2012 at 6:50 pm

As far as banding together for survival, I’ve made friends with several neighbors and talked about “what if?”. I’m familiar enough with a few of our neighbors to know they’re the salt of the earth, slow-walkin, slow-talkin folks…

As far as family is concerned, well, I’m ashamed to say that I’m rather distant with my family. Multiple siblings, but none of them are aligned with us politically and think we’re kind of “out there, fringe” for prepping. None were in the Scouts except me, and almost all are “I’m just going to rely on the Government because I pay my taxes” types… I can’t help but feel a twinge of pity for them, and I know that at least a couple will come knocking on our door in the event Bad Things happen. But what am I supposed to do? None of them have any useful skills that I know of… don’t want to turn away blood relatives, but I don’t want to harbor useless eaters either…

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Vote -1 Vote +1Brian
July 7, 2012 at 8:08 am

I don’t care to belong to any club that would have me as a member.

Just found your site, looks like there’s some good info here. Figured I’d chime in. Long time “lone wolf” type survivalist. Well, lone wolf and wife. I might take part in some loose association of like-minded individuals that would form in the aftermath of whatever event. Or not. Might think differently if I had children or lived in the city I suppose, but never had/did either. Have some preps to spare for the inevitable family/friends that will show up at our place (ours is a pretty good place), which is OK with us since we’ll likely welcome the help – but just no desire to form or join a group beforehand. Couple nice things about the loner style, OPSEC usually isn’t a concern, and you have a 360 deg free-fire zone wherever you go.

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